Ripoff - Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Program - New Point System

Well, I was starting to think that the original title of this thread had been hijacked by paid posters. Yes, folks some do see it as a RIP-OFF.

Was really looking forward to that earnings release. I was shocked to learn that sales of timeshares were below expectations and that most of the larger than expected loss was due to write downs of properties. Who would have thunk it!

An interesting event came up today for a friend of mine who converted a large inventory of units to the Destinations Program. He Booked a Cruise for almost 10,000 points and had some left over. So, he booked a 4 day stay at Desert Springs. No Problem! However, when he contacted the property to tell them he had Special Needs because his wife has MS and is confined to a wheelchair, he was told that owners who book short stays can not request preference. GREAT!

Enough said!

Dennis--

So how do we start a new blog for those of us who want to talk about how to maximize our ownership with MVC. I'm all for it!

Kathy

Bob - Do you really think that your timeshare experience will be enhanced by continued criticism of the Marriott programs and the Vacation Club entity? I see nothing in your message that could not be explained or justified rather than presumed to be a major flaw or failure. Further, my reading of timeshare forums only reinforces my view that Marriott is top tier in the industry. I hope that the Marriott Vacation Club is extraordinarily successful to the benefit of both shareholders and vacation club participants.

Dennis

Dennis, the thing you seem to misunderstand, is that I see no way my experience will ever be enhanced by the current operators of MVCI. For almost 20 years I was one of the most satisfied owners that you could have ever met. I actually owned a significant amount of the company's stock and religiously used a credit card with the Marriott name.Than things changed for me. No more stock and a new credit card. I do know that I am happy to own two great properties in Palm Desert and Maui, and know that I will be satisfied to go to both for as long as I am physically able. What I will NEVER do is give up my units for significantly less than what this company is charging NEW owners.

What I see as the Rip-Off, is the way they now conduct business, not the way the Marriott family conducted theirs back when I agreed to buy. If you don't think that charging people three times as much for POINTS than the properties they are said to represent, identified by the unit association dues are assessed on, is not a scam, than please feel free to call me about that bridge I am selling for half price,

In my experience, my agreement constituted a contract for the purchase of Property and the management of services agreed upon at that time. Although I still own that property, the services have been drastically altered. As I have stated before, I spent over 30 years prosecuting business's and individuals for Tax Fraud, I have one hell of a lot experience identifying when someone is getting hosed.

If you are happy, I am glad for you. But for those of us who are not, this is unfortunately one of our only ways to show our displeasure. I think either you or Katheryn should go to General Topics and start a new thread for people who agree with you. Lets see how many like minded individuals respond.

.

Thank you, Bob! I could not agree more! YES, the services have been drastically altered! I am shocked that it is legal!

Bob, I hear you and you write from a wealth of experience. We are relative newcomers since 2006, are heavily invested with 7 weeks and some points, and did not experience the glory days.

I think you are right in that the benefits may have been much better in the early days when timeshare was growing. I also suspect that profits from robust new sales enabled a richer program. Recent years, however, have been tough for anything real estate and our timeshare interests have not been sheltered from this. I read the forums and see timeshare interests becoming worthless and timeshare companies dropping out leaving customers stranded. On the other hand, Marriott and a few other well capitalized timeshare oriented entities are still up and running.

Just like you, we use all of our timeshare interests and focus on getting the value we purchased. In that regard, as a legacy owner I feel that a successful Vacation Club entity/sales program is essential to the realization of my legacy timeshare investment.

All the best (I apologize if I have sounded grumpy),

Dennis

Bob--

No question that things have really changed and we are not totally happy with the changes. You seem to know and understand the legal side and I ask you--are these changes legal or aren't they? If they aren't then something should certainly be done to make them accountable (i.e., class-action lawsuit). If these changes are legal--and we are all in the same boat--what can we do to make this system work for us? I agree the points are outrageously priced, but I wonder what the going price is for a week in the timeshare industry? I personally have no idea what they are currently asking for a week or the equivalent number of points. How does it compare with MVCI? Hasn't Disney also gone to a points based system?

Kathryn, I am sure that under the law what they are doing by offering owners a choice is legal. That said, there is nothing a class claim could do but make some attorney money. We just need to hope that whatever we purchased retains value.

As for what the worth is, is anyone's guess. As Dennis says we do have the comfort of knowing that as Deeded Ownership goes, we have the best. Many folks who simply own points as a vehicle to use without a deeded, undivided interest, have simply a promise. My daughter happens to own Disney for one, Great company who stand behind what they sold. Unfortunately not all did, Many sold point systems not supported by actual units and have simply gone away. Others built units that when they no longer were profitable were resold for pennies. Marriott is obviously not one of either.

My concern is really not for myself. I just believe that what is being charged new owners is greatly overpriced. As an example, I will use my 2BR Desert Springs unit. Which by the way I love, I bought a Winter week in 1993 for the top price of $16,900. When they were all sold out they were being sold by Marriott for about $31,000. Mind you, those units were available on the aftermarket for under $15,000. Than the bubble burst!

The new owners could no longer fool the public when so many were being resold, so the strategy was to change to points. These points, although still backed up by an undivided ownership in a physical unit that is subject to real estate taxes and annual maintenance fees, sell currently for $10.94 each. Given the fact that in order to use my particular unit will cost 3,750 points or about $41,000, I feel someone is getting ------.

As long as there are new buyers and maintenance fees keep going up, things will be just peachy.

Lastly, they tell new owners how they can use their points to stay at any one of their properties. I would like to hear from just one person who was able to book a Marriott Maui Lahaina Tower week in the summer for the stated 1BR rate of 3,100 points. Last I heard, they had none and were trying to buy some back at the Pre-Construction price.

If you want to see what the value really is, go to a resale site and see what they are actually selling for. Remember, that Marriott has the first right to refusal and will grab any that are too cheep before you can and that any resales by Marriott carry a 40% commission. Oh, They will only resell yours after they have exhausted their own resale inventory. That inventory being made up of units they took back because the owners stopped paying their maintenance fees or they DIED.

By the way Kathryn, Disney and Westin only ever sold points. Thus, my daughter who loves Disney now that her children are young, may rethink that when they are older. I know there is no way I want to spend a week at Disneyland at my age.

Have a good one, and remember that whatever you have, you will be happy as long as you can use it.

P.S. an Attorney friend of mine once told me that he does not include Timeshares in Will's because he feels they have no value and should not be subject to inheritance taxes.

Thank you Bob, Dennis and Kathryn -- I've been following your posts and am impressed by your comments. We are not current owners but sat through a professional (but perhaps somewhat loosely accurate) presentation. I have always felt that Marriott is a premier travel company and still do, but am struggling to understand if buying points under the new program is worth it. Reasoning: at $10.94 per point, I can purchase 5,000 "Trust Points" for about $50k. I can book any property for a week's stay up to 12 months in advance. However -- for the premier locations (eg: Marriott Lahaina Maui Tower), would there be rooms/condo's available 12 months in advance? I'm reading some anguished posts that Trust Point owners can't get certain places 12 months in advance so they are now purchasing additional points to get an additional month advantage...

Having said that, I would find spending $5k for a week's lodging somewhat on the high side and it would take me 10 vacations to work off the initial $50k investment, not counting the additional $2k each year for maintenance fees. 10 years x $2k = $20k would take me another 4 vacations to use up, so my theoretical "break-even" would be perhaps 15 years. That assumes I'll always get my first choice of where I want to vacation. According to Marriott, I can pass the ownership of the Trust Points to my heirs, but who knows what the world will look like in 15 years? Therefore, in lieu of investing the $50k + $2k each year for the next 10 years, maybe it would be better for me to simply book on my own and pay cash. My thoughts are: (1) Marriott could always change the rules again; (2) weeks at prime locations could increase in points; (3) participation in the Trust Points program (plus the other groups they partner with) could increase thus driving up the competition for a limited supply of locations; and (4) Marriott won't always have properties where I want to vacation.

So it's a lot to think about. In essence, what I would appreciate are any comments you guys might have as to whether you would enter into such an agreement with Marriott as a "new owner" as I've described above... Do you think it's a good deal or not such a good deal?

Thank you again for your comments -- they are exceptional.

Paul

Paul, as I have stated, I think without a doubt Marriott has the best and safest units on the market. Frankly, no matter what happens to the points program, the units will always be there and well kept. That said, I for one would never pay that much for the points necessary to the good locations.

If it were me, I would look for a great location that I know that I would always enjoy going back to, if that was my only option. In my case its Desert Springs and Maui. With each of these, I have had fantastic success trading my excess when I wanted to. With DS, the unit is a 2Br LOCKOFF. Which means that since I rarely need the efficiency unit I can deposit and trade it through Interval Int. each year and always go down and stay in the master. The effect is that I get two weeks each year from that property. With Maui, I have two units there and only need one. Whenever I trade one, II has given me a second Bonus week. Thus getting three for two. Marriott would have you believe that this may not always happen, but for now it sure does.

If you can find a 2BR Lockoff unit in such a place with a maintenance fee under $1000, such a Desert Springs, that you can pick one up in the aftermarket for around $15,000 you would be way ahead. You can always convert to points later if you think you need more. You would need to pay more to convert, but it is reasonable. Frankly there is all kinds of inventory available. As good as I think mine are, I don't believe that I could get back the amount I paid for them. I could probably get my money back on the Maui units as long as I sold it on my own.

I SOLD TWO DESERT SPRINGS UNITS FOR MORE THAN I PAID FOR THEM. WISH I HAD KEPT THEM NOW.

I AGREE. I WAS A VERY HAPPY MARRIOTT OWNER FOR 20 YEARS. HAD MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY AND EVEN MY BOSS ALL BUY UNITS TOO. IN THE "GLORY DAYS" WE WERE GIVEN AND PROMISED THE MOON AND THEY DELIVERED FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS. SINCE THEN, EACH YEAR I WAIT TO SEE WHAT ELSE THEY ARE GOING TO DO THAT WILL DEPRECIATE THE VALUE OF MY INVESTMENT. AT FIRST WE GOT A FREE RENTAL CAR FOR A WEEK AND FREE AIRFARE FOR TWO TO ANYWHERE AND A 1 HOUR LONG DISTANCE PHONE CARD AS WELL AS 1 WEEK IN ANY- AND I MEAN ANY- MARRIOTT HOTEL IN THE WORLD. ALL FOR 200,000 POINTS. IT WAS A HUGE PUSH IN THE SALES PRESENTATIONS THAT THE UNITS TRADED BLIND. YOU COULD TRADE YOUR UNIT FOR ANY MARRIOTT UNIT OR HOTEL. WE STAYED AT SOME OF THE MOST LUXURIOUS MARRIOTTS. MILAN, ROME, KO OLINA, JW MARRIOTT HONG KONG AND MORE. NOW THE WAY THEY HAVE CHANGED THE PROGRAM, I CAN HARDLY EXCHANGE FOR A COURTYARD. I BOUGHT LOWER VALUE UNITS PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY TRADED BLIND. WHY BUY THE MORE EXPENSIVE ONES? THEN THEY CHANGED THE ENTIRE PROGRAM. TOOK AWAY PHONE CARD FIRST, THEN RENTAL CAR. THEN RAISED THE POINTS TO 250,000 FOR DOMESTIC FLIGHTS ONLY AND STARTED CATEGORIZING MY UNITS AS UNDESIRABLE AND NOT QUALIFIED ANY MORE TO STAY AT THE BEST HOTELS AND TIME SHARES. AND NOW THIS POINTS THING. THEY JUST KEEP COMING UP WITH WAYS TO SCREW ME. I AM SOOOO EMBARRASSED THAT I RECOMMENDED THIS TO PEOPLE AND NOW THEY ARE ALSO STUCK WITH IT.

My suggestion is that you start by buying three of the better Marriott "Platinum" season resale weeks in great locations - total well under $30k. You can tell the relative value of the resorts by looking at the rental listings in Redweek. I say three because this gives you the reservation advantage (13+ months for concurrent or sequential reservations). Keep in mind that you cannot enroll these weeks in the Dest. program. However, you can use them, rent them, exchange thru Interval, etc. With good planning, your $30,000 purchase would get you reservations at less than 25% of the cost of the Dest. Pts required to do the same thing.

Marriott properties are generally great; however, there are some that are more in demand and command higher rents. Bob had some recommendations which I'm sure are good. I recommend that you also look at Newport Coast Villas where good summer Platinum weeks can be had for $8 to $9,000 each. I know, because I bought two for $8,000 or less last summer and fall. Being a finance guy, my view was that in the worst case I pay the $1,000 in annual maintenance fees, rent them for $2,000 and they pay for themselves in just over 8 years. Plus, I can eventually sell them if necessary for near what I paid for them. I know Newport and suspect similar results may be possible from other weeks. One last thought, I would not buy units that I would not be excited to use.

I know that what I have written seems inconsistent with my previous writings but this is what I would do with the benefit of my experience.

'Hope this helps.

PS, added Sat morning - Don't forget - the least costly, most flexible, low cash alternative is to just rent what you will use thru Redweek. Owning timeshares/points is expensive, requires planning, and lots of attention. It is not as easy as one would think. However, my wife says this alternative does not force me to plan and take vacations - she is always right.

I am a weeks owner with Marriott at Ko Olina. Frankly, I don't know what all of the fuss is about. I also am a part of a points program with DRI. I love the points system because I have always had a desire to travel to different places. I use my points to do just that. Marriott's program is very similar. You have options that's all it is about. Some of us weeks (legacy) owners don't realize that points have been the new thing in timeshare for some time, because it offers options. Now often those options don't give you the same value for your points as accommodations, but sometimes you may not have the use for the accommodations all of the time. For example, I would sometimes be frustrated that Marriott only offered the week only and if I did not take it that year I would basically lose it or give it to II. However, with my DRI points I could save them to the next year and still go to the same resort. Since I always had points I never knew the difference in properties if you had a week there or trading there. Thus, the whole idea of the spread was not an issue for me.

I do not know what the fuss is all about because legacy owners like myself can still do whatever they could before and get what you signed up for. You can still rent, trade or stay in your unit as you did before. II is still there for you. In fact, as of now I am still reading on TUG on people still successfully using II to get trades.

What people don't like is that they may not be as FORTUNATE in getting more than what they bought. By this I mean, if you bought a cheap Desert Springs villa during low season and were able to trade to a peak season Maui property or if you had a studio and traded up to a 2 bedroom. This is what people are talking about when they speak of the good old days. However, those days are not absolutely gone, they just may not be as plentiful. Change is difficult for people, and as we get older we really don't like change.

I only have one week at Ko Olina. I am joining the points program because it has some very attractive features that I know I will take advantage of particularly when I retire and can travel more during the low seasons. My one week can translate into about 3 weeks or more within the Marriott system since I don't need a two bedroom anymore. The other thing that is important point that I continue to stress but no one seems to hear is that there is more than just Marriott in II. There are some other very nice resorts in there system and some nicer than Marriott such as Four Seasons and Westin.

What's funny is that I just picked up two Marriott Desert Springs II two bedroom units on II using my DRI points for a family reunion. It was as easy as it has been for the last five years.

I believe that people should just calm down and see what they have and utilized the options before them. Yes, it may is more expensive for newbies but they are buying a different product than us legacy owners. They are coming in with tours, cruises, hotels, etc. being offered as part of their points program. I was offered that same thing with my DRI points. These are two totally different programs.

I can still book my Ko Olina like I have always had. There has been no problem even during the summer. I can even still do two consecutive weeks, one with the studio and one with the one bedroom if I want to with no problem. I can still turn my Ko Olina into II and get an AC if I want.

As far as value is concerned, like a car you lost value the moment you left the sales office. If you bought resale, your maintenance fees increased. The Marriott Rewards program is OPTIONAL and always has been. Marriott can stop that altogether at any time. It said so when you signed on the dotted line if you bought from the developer. This was a free benefit of using rewards for hotel stays or being able to trade for rewards points.

I look at it like benefits at work. A vacation is a benefit. Employers do not have to provide paid vacation time. It is not required. They don't have to provide paid health care, it is not required. The don't have to have a 401K program, it's not required. Do you get the point? Marriott has provided extra privileges that people have made to be rights of ownership and they are confused. Do salesman pump these benefits up? Absolutely, but that is not what you signed up for on the dotted line.

My advice is to stop whining and complaining and learn to use your ownership. Whining and complaining do absolutely nothing but make some unnecessarily alarmed about nothing. If you are a legacy owner like me, it's simple join or don't. Be happy that you can stay at your resort and enjoy. If you are a points owner, be happy with what you purchase. However, in both cases use your memberships to the maximum.

I like Charles' posting of this morning. We are where we are, legacy and point owners. We should probably spend our time figuring out how to plan great vacations with what we have. I'm sure we've all had great experiences that we would have missed without our timeshares. I'm also glad I bought Marriott!

Dennis, I think you may be mistaken. From what I have been told by a number of friends who have done so, resales can be converted to the destinations program. It just costs more. Instead of $699, it cost them $1399. Anyway, that is what my friend paid. He had one unit bought through Marriott and three bought in the aftermarket.

Bob, thanks for the heads up, I'll check. I know there was something like that back at the start of Destinations for weeks already bought from sources other than Marriott.

Update - I just checked the Vacation Club website and "weeks purchased externally, with a deed recording date after June 20, 2010 are not eligible for enrollment in the Exchange Program." Weeks purchased externally before June 20, 2010 could be enrolled for $1,495 for the first week and $1,995 for more than one week.

One other thought, I am surprised that Marriott has not stepped in and acquired low priced resale weeks under the first right of refusal, especially Platinum weeks. I can only suspect that they may still be trying to cash out of inventory taken on at the beginning of Destinations. If this is true, then I would expect resale prices would be driven up when they do start buying. They can probably buy most resale units for less than the cost to develop new inventory. Is anyone seeing any resale purchases by Vacation Club?

Dennis, thanks for the updated rules. Now that sounds more familiar. Still not sure why they would charge such a penalty price if they want inventory. But that's their choice.

As to repurchases, I was told by a company employee who I happened to play golf with a few months ago, that they had employees who scanned the resale sites for desired units at attractive prices. When a sale of one is attempted, they will step in. She indicated that most of these would be at locations where they did not have enough inventory. I would assume that Maui would be one such location.

Although, a friend who went to a presentation there said that he was told they were going to do so, I have not been approached to sell mine. He said they were offering to by back at pre construction prices. I was also told by a company employee that Marriott planed to open a resale office for Maui units soon.

I am not sure what the rules as to repossessions are, but I would assume they get back quite a few units each year.

Kathryn and others:

A new forum was started today in the General Discussion section near this negative toned one. The new forum is entitled "Marriott Vacation Club "Destinations" - What I Like and What I've Done."

Let's see if we can share insight into what makes for a great vacation using our Vacation Club participations. Certainly, the Vacation Club provides lots of options and opportunities and we deserve to enjoy the full experience.

Dennis

Dennis--

Thanks for starting that blog. I'll get on and add a comment so it will pop up when a new post is made.

Also, one of the weeks we own was given to us by a family member who was not going to use it anymore, so Marriott did call it an "external" sale--even though not one dime changed hands (however, they did compromise and let us always be able to trade every other year for Marriott Reward Points). So we did pay the $1,995 to enroll all three weeks. My understanding is that is the only downside of an "external" sale--i.e., not being able to trade for the Marriott Reward Points.