General Discussion

Ripoff - Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Program - New Point System

Oct 23, 2011

Yes, I guess I would have a similar question: Do you need to convert all of your Legacy properties into Destination Points or can you elect to use one as a trade with II and convert the rest to Destination Point (e.g., if we wanted to trad through II for one of the Marriott properties in Spain and convert the rest to Destination Points--since the Marriott European properties can only be accessed through a trade with II)?


Kathryn M.
Oct 23, 2011

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Den

Last edited by dennish144 on Dec 13, 2015 05:43 AM

Nov 09, 2011

With all due respect to g333s, kathrynm et al who have attempted to provide clarity where there is none, I just read 4 pages on comments on this topic and I know it would make BERNIE MADOFF's head explode!!!!! This Marriott transition to destination point system, at best, wasn't implemented smoothly. At worst, it borders on a ponzi scheme with they possibilities of Marriott selling more Trust points at resorts that are the most attractive, then there is inventory.

I guess I'm one of those Marriott owners who was asleep at the switch when the transition occurred. Caveat emptor, except, in my case, 5 years after I became an owner. I just spent an hour on the phone with Rhonda in Marriott's corporate office customer advocacy office. I've been trying to exchange a premium week with Marriott/II since April and no luck. Since I accomplished similar exchanges in the past with no problems, I wondered why the difficulty this year. Reading this board I know realize one truth ( that Rhonda didn't voice as the problem), that the launch of the Destination Points program has significantly changed the exchange capabilities for owners. My question for any attorney's out there. why isn;t there a class action suit against Marriott? The product I purchased in 2008 has significantly changed and I'm still paying the mortgage.

PS Rhonda promises me she will call me back tomorrow. I'm afraid to talk to her because she already "greased the skids" that I might be better off enrolling in the Destination Points program.....Ugh I have a headache already...

I feel like the poor fans of the Baltimore Colts who woke up one morning and saw that the owner moved their Colts to Indianapolis ....Marriott Vacation club got out of their "legacy" business and moved into a safer one for themselves and to hell with the owners left behind....

Now I know how those folks who have homes under water feel....My $20,000 investment in annual family vacations is worth pennies on the dollar.....


Frank D.
Nov 10, 2011

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Den

Last edited by dennish144 on Dec 13, 2015 05:44 AM

Nov 10, 2011

It's now getting a bit ridiculous at the ineptitude of whatever this new company in Orlando is called...MVCI???? * As indicated I spoke with Rhonda Robinson yesterday 11/09/11 in Orlando's corporate office as customer advocacy and she promised she would call me back today 11/10/11 after investigating how she might be able to facilitate an exchange * Rhonda finally leaves a long winded voice mail at 4:59 today (11/11/11) explaining that she was sorry but they couldn't honor the $595 offer that was quoted in an email to me and that to enroll in Destination Points program would actually cost me something like $1,500 or something. Click. I say "huh?"..... I never got an email. *Check my voicemail again. Rhonda called at 5:28 to tell me to disregard the previous voicemail as it was NOT intended for me!!!! But to give her a call on Monday, because she's out tomorrow- Friday. She indicates she is trying to get infomation about my situation will try and get me the holiday week that I was asking when the 12 month time frame comes into play. Oh, then she realizes she wasn't sure if I was looking for holiday week 2012 or 2011 as she indcates she couldn't read her notes....ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!!!! Meanwhile I've become a bit more informed reading the boards and the situation is clear...there are a lot of Marriott Vacation Club deeded owners out there who have become livid with the Destination Points system and it is what it is...a rip-off with a several people desperately asking for someone to start a class action suit. PLEASE if there is an attorney out there who can mount a class action suit there are a lot of MVC owners who would sign on. Simultaneously, reading the boards it is unbelievable what Marriott is getting away with.... And with the expectation of devalution of destination points it will only get worse....This IS a PONZI scheme * BTW: If I eventually hear from Rhonda Robinson I'll let you know. But I'm not expecting much...the stories from the legion of MVC deeded owners out there who feel betrayed, scammed and conned have me expecting the worst.

BTW: I was passed onto Ms Rhonda Robinson only after I called MVCI corporate office in Orlando and asked for MVCI Chairman William Shaw.....I expect be following my call with Rhonda to this triad of upper management

Chairmen William Shaw President- Stephen Weisz EVP and COO - Lee Cunningham

These are the only people, I fear, can make a difference and listen to my/our concerns.... I really feel cheated as I pay my $300 monthly payment and $1,000/yr fee.....

To Be continued

dennish144 wrote:
Frank - I agree that Rhonda's response will be "buy vacation points." The follow-on question then is how will this solve my problem; and, how many points at $10 per point would I really need to do me any good. I expect that, if you get an honest answer, you would need an additional $50,000 investment (5,000 VCP pts) to do you any good at all. Then, ask Rhonda what you can get for 8,000 VCP points (5,000 pts acquired + points from your owned week). You won't get much more than 2 weeks (and you traded in your existing week).

My conclusion - You might want to consider buying weeks in the aftermarket at some point - you can buy a high season "Platinum" week at Newport Coast Villas in California for $9,000. $50,000 would go a long way toward buying multiple premium weeks with great trading power thru Interval. Two new weeks plus your existing week may also enable you to make reservations 13 months in advance.

If someone knows of a better solution for Frank - please share it.

) 'll be interested to hear Rhonda's response to the issue of


Frank D.
Nov 11, 2011

g333 where are you??? I'm not sure I'm the one to respond to this as I'm not sure I have any answers! I'm still trying to work my way through all of this, but to date, we really haven't had any problems getting the vacations we've wanted. On good faith, we have entered the Destinations Program to give us the flexibility it has promised us. We did not buy trust points, nor we have never requested going to our home resorts (though we may in the future). My understanding is that if we want to go our home resort we need to at the very earliest moment of the request cycle. The only fault to date that we have with Marriott is that it appears to us that Marriott has not prepared their representatives very well in explaining this new program. We enrolled our three weeks in the Destinations Program and no one even mentioned purchasing Trust Points. My husband and I are retired so we have a considerable amount of flexibility in our travel time--but this is not the case with many of you with 8 - 5 jobs! I just wish that Marriott had made this new program more user-friendly than it is. Thank God for g333 or I would still be wandering out there in la-la land trying to figure out what questions to even ask! I also hope that Marriott monitors this discussion because that could really help all of us with our questions, understandings and misunderstandings--if they would enter this discussion! I really want to be able to assume good faith and hope to hell that Marriott really cares about us!


Kathryn M.
Nov 11, 2011

Hi again Kathrynm! I'm really sorry to all of you that I have not been on top of this thread. But I do feel for all of you fellow owners that are feeling confused, frustrated, or down right angry. Let me assure you that I will try to the best of my abilities to shine a little light in the darkness that we feel thrown into.

First I'd like to address a few things seeing as how I still enjoy my vacations and the Marriott properties. I love what I own and also love the new product. It breaks my heart to hear the anger and disgust that my fellow owners are feeling towards Marriott. Much of which I fully believe is due to a lack of communication and or clarity of EXACTLY what Marriott accomplished with their new product. So most of this will be for Frank :)

Although some of the stuff that I state won't be all butterflies and rainbows, it will be the truth and like the old saying goes, sometimes the trust can be painful.

The first thing that I'd like to point out is that there is no basis for a lawsuit of any kind. I understand that we all purchase timeshare, regardless of what company, to be able to stay in nice places and exchange to other locations. And I understand that you are seeing a huge difference in the amount of inventory available in Interval and therefore feel that Marriott's new system is taking away from what you already purchased. There are two things that we, as owners, need to realize and accept. 1. The ONLY accommodations that we are GUARANTEED are the ones that we have a legal piece of paper to with our names on it. That means our HOME RESORT, in the SEASON we purchased and the SIZE that we bought. ANYTHING and EVERYTHING outside of that deed is not ours. We do not own anything other than what is on our deed and therefore are NOT entitled to other resorts, seasons, or sizes.

2. Exchange companies such as Interval are not owned by Marriott nor do they own any resorts. They are a service provider that allows owners to swap their timeshares amongst each other without actually having to find or know the person we are swapping with. Interval services over 2.5 million members and obviously they are not all Marriott owners.

With that said, please take a moment and logically ask yourself how Interval gets their inventory. They get it from us, owners. We ultimately decide whether to deposit our week with them or not. And if I decide not to deposit my Lakeshore Reserve week, then that is one less Lakeshore Reserve week available within Interval for someone to exchange in. No one can blame Marriott for that, nor can Marriott force me to give up my week just because someone else wants to exchange for it. Now let's assume that not a single Marriott owner decides to deposit their week into Interval. Does that mean that there are grounds for a lawsuit? Think about this extreme example. There wouldn't be a single Marriott property available to exchange into and it's not Marriott's fault. As owners, we have the right to NOT deposit our week and Marriott is not liable nor responsible to provide Interval with inventory in case such a situation would occur.

So, now that you know how Interval gets their inventory and why exchanges can be difficult to get what you want every time(the person that owns what you want may not have decided to deposit it, and if they did, your competition is 2.5 million other members. Forget about the VIP desk at Interval. All that really is, is a hotline where Interval employees assist Marriott owners. They do not work for Marriott and can not magically predict when what you want will be deposited by the person who owns it) Let's address the question of where all the inventory is going if owners like myself aren't putting it into Interval, which has the snowball affect of what Frank is dealing with.

Marriott was the only company who solely depended on an outside exchange company to facilitate all of their exchanges. Most companies have an Internal exchange system. Therefore Interval always had a lot of Marriott inventory...there was no other place for it to go (unless it wasn't deposited or was traded in for MRP) However, now, Marriott has created it's own internal exchange system. So for owners like myself, or Kathrynm, or anyone else who has enrolled, we now have 2 options when we decide to deposit our week. If we elect points for them, we are giving it to Marriott's Internal Exchange system and therefore those weeks are not finding themselves into Interval.

And that is why you are feeling a shortage of options in Interval. The simplified answer is that a lot of owners enrolled and elected points for their weeks for 2012. And if you decide not to enroll yourself, you won't have access to all that Inventory. Again, let me clarify...YOU CAN NOT BLAME Marriott for this. It's my right as an owner what I want to do with my week and how I decide to use it.

This last comment is for dennish. You completely pulled the amount of points and cost of those points from the air. I dislike that because other owners looking for answers can read your post and be under the wrong impression. I understand venting, but adding comments and opinions that have no basis is just adding to the confusion. I have the points chart and if you are referencing those time periods and places like Park City during Sundance, then yes, I agree it takes a lot of points if you want to stay the whole week. But if you don't need to stay the whole week, then Sun-Thurs cost half the points and at least you can experience these trips whereas they never found themselves in Interval. The people that paid 60K+ for those weeks aren't depositing them and paying $129...they are renting them out on this site or others like it make thousands of dollars. At least now with the Trust, I have access to the unsold inventory and can get into those places during those times. And at 60k+, in this economy...i believe that there are a lot of unsold units that found their way into the Trust. It just makes sense.

And Frank...these unsold units were never given to Interval. Only owned weeks could be deposited from the owner of that week. So please do not feel that Marriott is blocking you out of this inventory or taking it away from you unless you fork over more money...the reality is that we, as owners, NEVER had access to unsold inventory. We only had access to what our peers deposited with Interval. So in Marriott's effort to INCREASE availability for exchanges...they opened up the unsold inventory to those who want to purchase into the Trust. To other who don't, that's okay too. You can't complain about not having access to something you never had access to in the first place. That's a hard truth, but Marriott is a business. Just because they created a new product doesn't mean we are entitled to it for free.

Hope this helps! p.s. Rhonda can not put a gun to anyone's head to force them to deposit the inventory you want. If it's not there, it's not there and nothing she can do can make it appear. But I do hope for your sake that something pops up. I can attest that my exchanges have miraculously appeared just when I was sure that they wouldn't. Keep faith.


G333 S.
Nov 11, 2011

Kathrynm every year you have a choice on how you want to use your week. you can choose to use it at your home resort, trade for marriott reward points (every other year for most properties), give it to Interval for exchange, OR convert it for Destination Exchange points.

You can elect Destination points for one of your weeks and not another one. Each week is independent of each other, so what you do with one, you do not have to do with another. Just keep in mind that enrollment gave you a fourth option each year instead of the original three. Every year you will need to re-decide how to use your week. None of the options are automatic. Also keep in mind that each option carries it's own deadline. For instance, trading your week for Marriott reward points is December 31st while trading your week for Destination points is September 30th.


G333 S.
Nov 12, 2011

Dear g333s,

Thanks for taking the the time to submit your thoughtful response. However you are missing some crticial and seminal points that is going on here.

In respect to your response I wanted to make a logical, informted and unemotional response to your categorization of the situtation. So I went back and did more reading and research and also relooked at my source for my dissatisfaction and dissapointment.

Background * My wife and I made our one week Marriott vacation club purchase in 2008. At the time we made the purchase for the following reasons: - We wanted to establish a tradtion where we would have an annual family vacation with the entire family, my children and grandchildren. We liked the idea of a family vacation tradtion, especially with the children going their separate ways as they got older etc. - While we were not crazy about the Marriott home resort being considered for purchase, our MVCP sales rep, Billy Lovitz ( John Lovitz cousin for a bit a trivia for ya) reassured us multiple times that exhanges would be easy to implement. In fact he offered many of his customers at the resort in consderation never, ever use their home resort; they easily exchanged them for any of the hundreds of properties represented not only by Marriott but Interval as well.Geez, I have to laugh looking back at how Mr Lovitz was telling us we would be able to go to Carpi Italy. By purchasing a PLatinum week we would have no problems with exchanges we were told. just give them enough notice and several options. Which we have in the past and have had no problems with getting exchanges. even for xmas week. - As a deeded property Mr Lovitz, indicated our week would be able to left as a legacy to our children after we passed on. Actually that was a nice thought; envisioning a nice week vacation that could be shared by my family after me and the mrs kicked the bucket. Now the reality is they may be saddled with a property decreasing in value and annual maintaince fees that they will have to pay. Boy, great legacy!!! - The Marriott brand name was the other compelling point for purchasing the vacation week. The credibility of the Marriott brand and the heritage of the Marriott family was a big positive to us. We trusted the brand through years of first hand experience with their quality hotels etc. They are a top hotelier for a reason.

So with background in context, here is where I'm having a problem with your response

* In the beginning of your response you state: "Much of which I fully believe is due to a lack of communication and or clarity of EXACTLY what Marriott accomplished with their new product."

That is exactly what is wrong with what has transpired besides the confusion in communication. Destination Points IS a totally NEW product. A product, that I'm sure you know, the majority of Marriott owners feel is inferior to the original deeded product. Not only this board, but check out the 20+ pages of comments to Bill Marriott on his blog regarding the deep resentment that exists by Marriott Owners to the Desintation Point program

( copy and past this link to check them out at) http://www.blogs.marriott.com/.a/6a0120a73c0f0d970b0133f1c8912c970b-popup

What I find also troubling to these posted comments to Mr Marriott is that he has failed to respond to any of these owners. This lack of response is making their frustration deeper. I expected better from the Marriott family

Besides all this negative reaction to the DP which artfully stated in not warrented, g333s, my point in short is I signed up for a product that has been materially changed (to my/owners detriment) and I'm still paying for it. I:ve been thinking alot about this and an applicable analogy. Consider this: if you purchased a LEXUS, had a normal bank loan on it, and some time during the night in the early part of the loan payments, the LEXUS was removed from your driveway and was replaced by a Toyota Camry . This is the essence of my dissapointment with the Destination Points program. They made " material retroactive changes" to the Marriott Vacation timeshare product without getting express affirmative consent" from it's owners. Check out the very recent FTC vs Facebook privacy settlement case. Take a look at it, very similar to what we have here: if not identical to what we have here with Marriott.To make the analogy even tigher it's interesting that at the time Zuckerberg described the changes to the Facebook privavcy settings were made a as "a simpler model for privacy control". The FTC said hog wash, these " simpler changes" were "material retroactive changes" and Facbook will be required to change their privacy policy from "opt out" to "opt in".

This is what I'm upset about, Marriott spun the company off and changed what I purchased in good faith with a lot of reassurances from their sales rep. But irregardless of the reps sales tactics, as has been documented on these boards by dissatisfied owners, the product has been replaced by an inferior product all under the guise of "greater flexibility"???? Please don't misunderstand me, I love Camry's, but I paid for a Lexus....Yes Lexus like all autos will depreciate over time, but I put my money down for a Lexus, not a Camry. I did not give anyone my consent to make this "material retrocative" change to my purchase/agreement/business relationship.

* g333s, to your point The ONLY accommodations that we are GUARANTEED are the ones that we have a legal piece of paper to with our names on it. That means our HOME RESORT, in the SEASON we purchased and the SIZE that we bought. ANYTHING and EVERYTHING outside of that deed is not ours.

Ok lets go down that route despite all the assurances about ease of exchange by the MVC rep. Let's say I wasn't interested in exchanging my deeded week and wanted to stay on my home resport, the original owners are still treated like second class citizens. People with Trust points have preference to the actual home resort property (13 month advantage). Think about this when you read Marriott's stated objective is to convert 95% of their owners into Destination Point participants in two years. YIKES!!! Then to add insult to injury if I was to convert my owner deed week into DP's I would get about 30% less value from my week ( I would need to buy trust points) in order to get my week back through Destination Points...c'mon g333s....this not something befitting the Marriott brand nor fair practice. Let's call it what it is, Marriott wanted out of the real estate business and created a point system where everything more in their favor and steer consumers to their inventory like a puppeteer. Two words comes to mind when I think of these destination points: 'Tulip Bulbs" all over again.

BTW: where do you think all the Marriott inventory that went into foreclosure the last few years? Yes, it went into their Trust Inventory not Exchange inventory. So In essence the pot of inventory possiblities for exachange is now divided into 3 parts: Trust, Exchange and Interval, with very very hard push to shift the majority of this inventory into the Trust column where Marriott can manipulate the point system to their advantage e.g. weekends have higher point value, annual devaluation of points etc.

In conclusion g333s, I'm not looking for anything for free, but I do want to retain what I paid for. It's kinda sad because if I had received my exchange request I would be a happy camper all would be fine with the world. But the last few days based on my investigation, discussions and very deep soul searching in terms of fairness and what is right, my eyes have been opened wide. That is, this is not right for all the reasons I stated above; it is not morally or legally. At this point I just want to cut my losses and not leave my family with the burden or nuisance of maintenance fees. Of course g333s if you would like to purchase my deeded week, I will give you a great deal. C'mon g333s, it's a steal!!!!

Cheers, Frank


Frank D.
Nov 12, 2011

Just read your post and have to admit that I agree with most of it, though not all. I think the reasons why you initially purchased were sound and all good points. In fact, they are pretty identical to the reasons why I purchased. I feel bad for those who purchased with the ideas of it being an investment that they could later flip or with the intent of using it like a rental property to make money. We all know that those reasons were never a good idea.

As for the Bill Marriott comments, I have actually seen those and read them. I'm not sure why he hasn't responded, but I also won't assume that with all the changes that are happening that he gets a whole lot of free time. Who knows?

I will like to pose the question of why you feel like your Lexus was switched to a Camery when in reality, Marriott hasn't changed anything about what you own. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. As for the exchange availability, well, like I said before, it's not really Marriott's fault if owners are choosing not to put their weeks into Interval and are instead opting to elect points for their week, which in effect makes the inventory go into the Marriott Internal Exchange instead of Interval. I only reiterate this because you mentioned that if you had gotten the exchange through Interval you would be a happy camper. It just doesn't make sense to blame Marriott for owners deciding not to deposit their week with Interval.

I would implore you to look at it this way....(because this is what happened to me and it still irks me, of course on a smaller financial scale, but still) After much research and hands on usage I decided to bit the bullet and buy an Ipad. I wasn't really in the market for one, I wanted a book reader and had no prior experience with Apple outside of my ipod. But the base model was only $100 more than the kindle and so I decided it was worth it. While I was in the store, the sales person convinced me to get the second to most expensive one for reasons such as space and 3g blah blah blah. Anyway, I became addicted immediately and never regretted my decision. This was on Jan. 13th of this year. In March (or April?) They released the Ipad 2. Nothing changed about my ipad, but it wasn't slimmer and it wasn't lighter, and it didn't have the new processor. But it was still the same that I bought. To make matters worse is that anyone who purchased the ipad within 30 days of the ipad 2 going on sale was allowed to switch with no money out of pocket. I was 3 months out, so unless I wanted to buy a whole new ipad 2, I was stuck. And no I didn't buy the ipad 2, but I still really wish I had the newer version. And I still love my ipad but it doesn't have a camera etc...

The difference is that any software update I get for free. Where as enrollment (Marriott's equivalent of a software update) has to be paid for, but then it makes your week function like the new stuff. And of course you'll always have the option to buy the ipad 2 (Trust points).

Now let's look at this from a Trust owner's perspective. Required inventory (foreclosures etc) are put into the Trust as well as the inventory that Marriott receives from any owner who opts to turn their week in for MRP....as a Trust owner, wouldn't I be happy to have access to all that inventory?

To be fair, let me please put out there that the inventory that Marriott received from owners who wanted MRP instead was never given to Interval. It was rented out. MRP may give an owner the option to stay at a hotel for free, but the hotel owner still wants to be compensated and will accept the MRP but then bill Marriott for the stay. So in essence, the income Marriott made from renting out the week given to them by the owner was used to pay for the MRP that was given to the owner for that week. The same holds true for the required inventory. When Marriott assumes the deed back, they also get back the maintenance fee associated with that deed. From a logical standpoint, I would never rent out my Lakeshore week that I pay over $1000 on for a measly $129 (the current exchange fee Interval charges for Marriott to Marriott exchanges) I would have to rent it out for $1000 just to break even. So to also be fair...if I wouldn't do it, then ask yourself why you feel Marriott should do it with their weeks? Why should Marriott put the inventory that they are paying maintenance for into Interval? What do they get out of it? And if you say that they are getting the satisfaction of owners happily exchanging, I would agree with you. But would you agree with me that as a business, it would make more sense to rent out the units to off set overhead? We want Marriott to continue to stay in business because if they don't make enough or their costs are too great, then where would we all stand? We should all want Marriott to be successful even if as individuals, we don't want to reinvest with them.

As for the DC points, I'd like to point out some facts that protect owners from devaluation or point inflation. Because this is a true points system and not a points overlay (which is what enrollment is) the points are not arbitrary and are tied to real deeded properties. Therefore if there are a total of 10 points in the trust and it takes 5 to go to aruba and 5 to go to hawaii, at the end of the day it has to equal 10 because that is what is in the trust. They can not decide to make aruba 15 and hawaii 20. Each Beneficial Interest (250 point increments= 1 Beneficial Interest) is tied to a piece of real property. So they can't just make up points. What they can do however is make Aruba 7 points but then lower Hawaii to 3. In any given year, the points must equal the amount in the trust. So if one goes up due to demand (like everything else in the world...timeshare is no exception) then another must decrease by the same amount. This is all written in the legal documents of the Trust registered in the Orange County Courthouse in Orlando. (and yes...I have no life and have read it..sad, i know. But I just hated how uninformed every sales person was that I spoke to and all the theories owners were throwing around on these blogs, that I had to go get the info for myself)

And to put your mind at ease about the Trust owners having priority to your home resort. Marriott MUST give you a week at your home resort in your season if that is how you choose to use your ownership. Now it may not be the week you want in particular in that season, but you are guaranteed a week at your home resort in your season. That's what the deed entitles you to. They can not give it to another exchanger, or Trust owner before you deciding to use it. Unless of course you waited till the end of your season and everything is booked up from that point forward. Remember it guarantees you any week in your season, not just what's left in the year from the time you call. So if you call with only one week left in your season, they may not have an opening because it was all open a month ago. In my case, because so many people come to Orlando in the summer, if I don't call ahead of time, I could risk not being able to get into the summer which is when I use it. My platinum week also gives me december till spring, which may be wide open but not the time I want to go.

As for the 13 month reservation window...if you own more than 2 weeks, you have that same option at your home resort. Since Trust owners own all the resorts they have that option to book any of the resorts in the trust. So they have different rules similar to the requirements of having to have more than one property.

If an owner has less than 6500 points total, which is 85% of the owner base (trust, enrolled, or an combination of the two) then they can book 13 months out but must pay in points for that convenience. The charge is 20% of whatever the cost of the reservation they are making. Most owners will not spend the points for this convenience unless the reservation they want is really important to them and they don't want to risk not getting it.

The other 15% of Marriott owners fall into the remaining two categories of Premiere (6500) and Premiere Plus (13,000). These people can book without paying addition points for the 13 month heads start. Premiere may do a full week up to 13 months out, but anything less than a full week they can only do it 10 months out. Premiere plus owners have no restrictions to the length of stay and the 13 month jump.

So the reality is that there is not much to fear that all these TRUST owners are booking a month before you can. Only 15% of the owners can do it, and most people don't know what their travel plans are that far out, so not even all of them will take advantage of this.

And I'm a firm believer that it's easier to find bad news and complaints about something than testimonies on how great something is. And even when we do see/hear about it, we wonder to ourselves if they are paid and if what they are saying is true or not. So I posted a link to a forum in TUG (timeshare users group) where owners are encouraged to comment about the success of the new system. Hopefully reading some of their positive experiences will convince you that Marriott didn't wake up one day and decide to sell an "inferior product" in hopes of staying successful and piss off all of their loyal clients.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149002

There is some really good info on other threads, and you'll also find owners that are venting, much due to the same issue you are facing which is where is all the inventory going now that it's not being given to Interval. But as long as we accept the fact that owners do not HAVE to deposit their week with Interval for us to exchange into, we will have a better feeling towards marriott and not blame something on them that is out of their control.

P.s. Where do you own? I'd really like to get a week at one of the resorts that had the ability to trade for MRP every year instead of every two years. I know that I can't buy it as a resale because you lose the option of trading for MRP when it's not purchased from the developer, but there are ways around that :) So if you're serious and it's what I'm looking for...we can talk!


G333 S.
Nov 15, 2011

Frank - you are indeed correct that the owners are getting a switch up on what they originally purchased. Yes - you are being given a Camry for a Lexus. Or as I would say - Marriott will let you keep your Lexus but, they just increased your car payment to a higher $ amount. And you have no choice but, to pay a higher car payment or you end up with a Camry in your driveway. I have read all the info that others have written on this forum. A lot of it is not the whole truth or just plain misinformation. I just went to a "owner's presentation" at St. Thomas, VI a week ago and talked to the sales person to get more info on the points program (MVCD). I bought into the MVCD Points program and within a week realized several key things that show how my weeks value has gone down. For example: 1) To get back into your own Legacy property it costs more points than you are assigned for your week. So you could not go back 7 nights during your season with the points your Legacy week allows you. 2) Also Marriott will allow Points users to reserve up to 50% of the rooms in your season. #2 especially upsetting to me -In fact, the salesperson during my presentation told me that I would have to pay $10,000 more to get the extra points to ensure I can always get a good week at my resort during the season I purchased. I own Park City Mountainside to ski during ski season (platinum). There are approx. 12 different weeks in the platinum season that you can reserve to ski. Let me assure you I paid big $'s to Marriott for my Legacy week to stay and ski at PC. I have never traded that week away. So you think that is no problem - just reserve your week like you did before by calling Marriott to reserve to use your week at your Legacy resort. That has definitely changed and not for the better. I will explain why (and by the way this was all told to me by the Marriott sales person a week ago. I haven't just made this up because I think I know everything.) Out of the 12 weeks in my platinum season that I own to go ski - the beginning and ending weeks of that season are not the most desirable ski weeks. (in other words there may not be any good snow - therefore, usually everyone wants the best weeks.) The salesperson explained that for example - out of the 12 weeks in my platinum season there may be 5 weeks that are not desirable and 7 weeks are great. Marriott can make reservations for Points users for 50% of the rooms in the 12 weeks. The salesperson said, the caveat is that, Marriott is putting all the rooms from the whole 12 weeks together in one pot to determine the 50% that Points users can reserve. Marriott will allow Points users to reserve 50% of the rooms away from that whole pot. In other words Marriott could allow reservations for Points users for EVERY room in six weeks of the 12 weeks. Guess which weeks will go first? You guessed correctly - the great snow weeks. That may leave the Legacy owners with the remaining less desirable six weeks. (All the rooms in the best six weeks is 50% of the all the rooms in the 12 weeks in my Platinum season.) This is not info I am making up - this is info given to me by the salesperson. In fact the sales person told me to ensure that I get the good ski weeks in the future - it would be wise for me to buy 1,000 worth of points (which includes a $400/year maintenance). Then I can convert my Legacy week to Points and use some of the extra Trust Points I bought to make a reservation at my resort. In that way I will have sufficient points to ensure that I will be able to reserve 7 nights in those great ski weeks in my platinum season. With my $10,000 purchase I would have enough points to go back for a week at my resort that I have been a Legacy owner at for years. As we all know Premium Points owners can also make a reservation 13 months ahead. To get into Park City Resort there are definitely people who will pay the extra 20% in more points to reserve 13 months ahead. Also many owners are multiple week owners so they are able to reserve 13 months ahead already. Park City is very desirable resort, and there are most likely some wealthier people that own there than the average resort. I was already up against the owners with multiple weeks who could reserve 13 months ahead and get the great ski weeks before the Points program. Now I also have to compete with the Points users taking more of the best weeks from my platinum season. So my platinum week has definitely been devalued - and even the sales person agreed that to get the great ski weeks - I would have to pay Marriott $10,000 more. And by the way - all the misinformation about the difference when making a reservation to book a room with Legacy Points Vs. Trust Points I was told is false. I was told by the salesperson that if you have the amount of necessary points - whether they are Legacy points or Trust points - they can all be used in the same way to make a reservation. A Point is a Point, is a Point. The Marriott salesperson also said that Legacy Points can be used to go to any New resorts to be built in the future. You don't have to buy Trust points to get into them. I was also told that same thing by a Marriott reservation person for the Points program. (Of course, it will probably cost you several of your Legacy weeks in points to stay one week at a new resort.) See - another way your Lexus has now become a Camry.


T M.
Nov 15, 2011

TM178-

Report that sales rep for mis-information right now! We can not let Marriott sales reps that are so desperate for a sale to use whatever scare tactic they can come up with to get a sale.

Here is the reality. I have a pdf of the points chart book that outlines every resort, season, size, and day cost in points. The majority of the people under premiere (6500) who would pay the 20% points premium wouldn't have enough points to make the reservation anyway. (Unless they bank and borrow and in essence give up 3 years worth of vacations for just one.) You were right in saying that those weeks were expensive and in turn cost a lot of points to get it.

Now as for the sales rep saying that Marriott can reserve 50% of the rooms for point owners is just plain malicious lies. Marriott can not take inventory away from the owner of the home resort in which he hold a deed and title to that season. I agree that they don't give you a fixed week every year unless that is what you purchased (ski resorts did sell platinum plus/fixed week times for this purpose) but the only inventory that Trust points owners access is the unsold inventory. The inventory that legacy owners never had access to..not even through exchanges.

The Trust owners are allowed to exchange with other non-marriott owners through Interval and even with other marriott owners through the Marriott exchange. In order for that to happen though, the Marriott owner first elects points for his week and then exchanges points with other legacy owners who elected points for their week. But in no way can Trust point owners take away inventory that is already sold to someone at any resort, especially at the home resort.

To be even more sure that the sales rep was lying about the separation of the different inventory pools and which points access which pools, simple look into the points book (or the book they gave you when you purchased...it doesn't have the points listed, but will have the two icons by the resort name) Look for the little box that has an E in it and some of them have two boxes that say E and T. There are two buckets of inventory and no sales person can argue that Marriott wants to make clear that the new program is not taking away the inventory we have (access to other owner's weeks through exchange) But also that we can't take away what they have (all unsold property that was put in the trust). The only way a Trust owner can get to your resort during a peak season ski time is if it was so expensive in the legacy world that no one bought it and by default was put into the Trust. Again, legacy owners did not have access to that unsold week. It was rented out by Marriott and probably at a very handsome profit.

And when the sales person tried to make you feel that you needed to buy more just to have the same 7 days at your home resort, shame on him. Points were not created to be used at your home resort (unless you go during a lower season, in which case it would net you points left over after your week stay) But the points assigned for our weeks isn't the same as the required amount of staying during our season. This is simple...Because we don't need points to go back to our home resort during out season. The observation is irrelevant and to get upset over something the doesn't affect us seems unproductive.

In example (said this before on this thread) You would not take your week, convert them to Marriott Reward Points, and then take those points (which won't give you 7 days at the resort anyway, so you'd have to do two years of conversions) and book your home resort with them.

So that means, you would not take your Mountain Side week, turn them into Destination Exchange Points, (which won't give you a week) and book your home resort.

The solution is: Just book your home resort using your week. Who cares if it's enough to go back in your season??!! You use points to go to other resorts to have longer/shorter stays, check in day flexibility...etc.

I bet your Mountain Side Platinum week gives you enough exchange points to stay at Harbor Point in Hilton Head for at least 5 weeks during low season and 2-3 full weeks during peak season (all in 2 bedroom units, since that is all that place has)

Another way to verify this information is to call 1-888-MVCI-VOA and just ask if there is availability for election points and follow up the question with, what about Trust points...and listen to what they say.

Do a little bit of research, verification of what the sales person tells you. Think a little logically. Do you really think, based on who Marriott is..that they decided to just wake up and create a horrible system with ideas of success and to anger all of their legacy owners? Do you think they would jeopardize their reputation just to make a few bucks? And if you really do believe that they would, then you probably shouldn't have bought with them to begin with. You could have bought at another company in Park City. Like Westgate (look them up, they are horrible). But you didn't. You chose Marriott for a reason and I hope you can have a little faith in that reason and the Company over some shumck sales person obviously just trying to get a sale.

There are two buckets. Marriott makes it clear as day in their points books and enrollment book they give when you make a purchase. Look for those icons. Then rest assured. Then figure out if you want access to the Trust bucket. Then decide whether to buy Trust points or not. And yes...All future properties will be in the Trust. They are not selling Legacy weeks anymore so how can any wind up as Exchange points originating from a Legacy week?

Therefore only Trust owners will have access to the future properties since all future properties are being put into the trust. The only way an Enrolled owner can get into the future property is by way of EXCHANGE. A Trust owner has to give up using a Marriott Trust resort Inventory (availability is only made by not using ANY Trust inventory at ANY resort) such as electing for a cruise or epic trip. Once the availability in the Trust is made, then a Legacy owner will be able to Exchange into it.

Please find the truth so that you will also find peace. Then please change your comment, I hate that the sales people are spreading their lies through owners who don't know they are lies and are just trying to clarity to other owner, trying to help us all out. In the end, it is like a cancer and we are helping it grow. I don't want other owners to be affected by this and the misinformation continue to spread.


G333 S.
Nov 15, 2011

I, too, am deeply annoyed that Marriott doesn't do something to stop this behavior of some of their reps! I want to assume good faith and believe that a lot of this misinformation their reps are spreading is a result of an inadequate understanding of the program and not a case of the reps preying on our confusion trying to sort out this new program--just to make a sale! Human nature is (unfortunately!) human nature...so I know there are some reps who are totally unscrupulous and are willing to do anything to make a sale and get their commission. Marriott needs to know about these people (if they don't already--is no one from Marriott reading these blogs???), and then Marriott should find them, and fire them! When I was working, I know I would have lost my job in a New York second if I engaged in this kind of activity. It can destroy Marriott's reputation!


Kathryn M.
Nov 15, 2011

I have seen all the points booklets. I know about Platinum Plus weeks. I am capable of understanding all the info. I know the salesperson was painting a bleaker than usual picture to try to sell points. I was not stupid enough to take the bait. But, that being said - I do not believe the salesperson lied. Points users can take away some of my desirable weeks at Mountainside. The reality is that there probably won't be enough owners at Mountainside who convert their weeks into Points to create her worst case scenario. Also not everyone will be willing to pay the extra 20% in points to go 13 months out to make a reservation. However, there will probably be many more people willing to give up extra points to go ski at Park City Mountainside than to go to one of the many Orlando resorts like Lakeside. People will save up a couple of years of points or purchase some extra points to go ski in PC. Up to 50% of the best weeks can be reserved by points users. (if the week is available for point exchange) I have heard that more than once. I have had a difficult time getting my first choice of week before the points program. I don't always get the week I want. It is now going to be more challenging. I also own a platinum Marriott Orlando resort week. I have never had a problem getting a good week in Orlando in my platinum season. Orlando resorts have many rooms and there are many Marriott timeshares there. So with Marriott Lakeshore you probably have no problem getting the week that you want in your season. I suggest that you should not assume that - I don't understand the program or that the sales person was giving misinformation. Two people - a Reservation Rep for MVCD Points program and a salesperson both told me that if you have the necessary amount of points and the week has been designated into Points - than a reservation can be made irregardless of whether the person reserving is using "trust" points or "legacy" points. A point is a point, is a point. I asked both Marriott people I spoke, to clarify that information - because I have read otherwise on forums. Both said if the property is available to reserve using points than it doesn't matter. Why would Marriott care what kind of point is used? When a person uses points they are paying a fair market value to stay at a resort. I have seen the booklets. I know to stay at Branson it will cost very few points to stay. To stay in Hawaii during high season it may cost you two weeks of Lakeshore points. It will no longer be a week for a week exchange. Marriott will make more money selling points to people who own a lower point value week and want to go other places than where they own. Of course, that person will find it difficult (maybe next to impossible) to trade using Interval now - if lots of people convert their week into the point system instead of using Interval. You know, now the silver week amount of points will only allow them to go to other resorts during off-season or other places with a low point value. I bet none of the new resorts will have low point values. The point system will probably net Marriott more money from owners who want to trade to go to a new property sometime in the future. I believe that many customers bought into Marriott timeshares for the fun of trading their week to go to other places that Marriott owns. Just now it is going to cost more Points (which means dollars) to go to the newer or more desirable places. Would it make sense to not allow all Marriott timeshare owners to use legacy points to stay at the new resorts to be built in the future? The new resorts will be more costly in point value to go to. Therefore, the owner will have to give up more legacy weeks to stay at the new resorts. Some may just buy points to make it easier to stay at new resorts instead of saving points from years. The game has definitely been changed and Marriott will get more $ in the end. You are entitled to your opinion, but, It is my opinion that the Points system was designed to benefit Marriott - not the owners.


T M.
Nov 16, 2011

Wow!!!! this is getting more informative as we speak....

@tm178: Thank you for explicitly addressing the points in; specifically the Camry analogy and making it even stronger ( unlike g333s)...You are right, they'll let me keep the Lexus but pay more for it....amazin. My prediction is that they will change the definition of platinum weeks by extending their designated number of weeks. Pretty soon tm178 you will be skiing on daffodils in Park City....I can not believe the FTC isn't on this...I have some time. I have a call into Stephen Weisz's office who is CEO in Orlando. If he doesn;t take my call I have his home phone number. I also have a call and email into FTC....I'll keep you posted @g333s:

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

You don't respond to the specific points in my post. You add some spurious comment about do you think Marriott would do this for a "few extra bucks" Really? REALLY?!! Marriott spun the company off and got out of the real estate business for a "few extra bucks".

I stand by my contention that Marriott "made material retroactive changes"; and that is not legal see case FTC vs Facebook; again


Frank D.
Nov 17, 2011

I own at Ocean Point Gold Season. I have always traded down to Silver season. My unit value is 2750 destination points. To stay during the trade down season costs 4900 destination points. (more than Gold Season) So it costs $595. to convert for less. I agree it's not worth it. Fortunately I didn't buy into it.


Charles M.
Nov 18, 2011

well, rumor has it that Marriott is trying to divest itself of their Vacation Ownership concept. Word is that they have feelers out there to see if anybody's interested. I think it's been a headache for Marriott as they started off with a slightly faulty program that's needed corrections and those corrections have been more band-aid than cure . . . I also object to the term "ripoff" as there is definitely value in any of the major hotel chains' programs providing you wish to vacation at that level of luxury and acutally use the program.


Luigi K.
Nov 18, 2011

@those who may be interested, part II - My conversation with Marriott Vacation Club Customer Advocacy. * in a previous post I described my difficulty in getting an exhange and a description of my first encounter with Marriott Consumer Advocacy, a Ms Rhonda Robinson. * We had our follow-up conversation today. We spent close to an hour on the phone with what sounded as her sincere intent to clarify and address a lof of negative claims being discussed on the boards regarding the Destination Points. * The conversation helped as we both realized that everyone's vacation/exchange desires are individual. We agree until I received the Destination Points chart/booklet we can move our discussiuon along. She agreed to send me booklet. She send me one chart for my property only. I pulled the entire booklet down off the web myslef. I should have pulled the booklet PDF myself, but it's buried hard to find. * Using this Marriott Destination Point booklet and getting onto the owners section of the vacation club website I found:

- My premium week 2 bedroom unit at Fairways Villas destination point value was assigned a value of 2,075 points.

- If I exchanged this deeded week into Destination Points and then for some reason I wanted to get it back, within lets say 30 days,a week, I would be charged 2,750 points; i.e. I would have to purchase an additional 650 points just to get my original, week back.

* That is in effect a 650 cost penalty to convert to the DP, plus the $695 one time fee involed. How much is a point? Whoever made this point about being penalized is right. Ms Rhonda communicated to me I would be able to get my week back if I needed for the same number of points I provided Marriott.

- I then compared what this Fairways Premium week 2,075 would be able to be exchanged based on a 2 bedroom unit during week #52 in places our family would consider ( so. florida, palm desert, phoenix etc). These are places we have never had experiencing problems in the past through Interval...Unlike this year....so for context here are the point value for several of the Marriott properties for which I looked up the destination points:

Marco Island Crystal shores 5,900-7,900 pts/wk/2bd/wk#52 • Miami Doral 2,675 • Ft Lauderdale Beach Towers 4,175 • Singer Isle Oceana 6,400 • Palm Beach Ocean Pointe 5,175-6,400 • Phoenix Canyon Villas 4,175 • Desert Springs Villas II 3,775** • Desert Ridge Shadow Ridge 4,000** • Desert Spring Enclave 4,000 • Newport Villas 4,950

So given I would receive only 2,075 pts for my Premium week, you can see, as many here feared, I would be sucked in for substantial more dollars just to effect an exchange I replicated several times before the DP program was launched through IL.

Yes, I understand realtive to my Marriott timeshare week value and the week desired for exchange, I'm asking for an upgrade. But please understand these are comparable exchanges I have made with no difficulty in the past; i.e."apples to apples" before and after the DP program was launched. remember as many have indicated on these boards, I was reassured by my MVC sales rep in 2008 that these type exchanges would be easy accomplished as long as I gave Marriott/Il sufficient time, location options , "and stay away from Hawaii". Reasonable advice that worked and was actually confirmed over the years by the experienced my Owner Vacation Planners who always had a good pulse on what was resonable exchange request to turn into IL.....they would know..... and they did. MY point is, and has always been, I understand what Marriott wants to do; needs to do, by moving to a point system. Go for it Marriott. But these are material changes that I want no part of and released from, as I am not willing to pay more to obtain the exchange power. Exhange power I once had and reassurred I had with a Marriott property and a Premium week.

I guess I should look on the posititve side; the discussion with Ms Robinson and the point exchange information provided today confirms some of our fears. And for me it confirms that the product I purchased in 2008 has gone through significant "material retrocative changes"

Stay tuned......


Frank D.
Nov 18, 2011

Deleted


Den

Last edited by dennish144 on Dec 13, 2015 05:45 AM

Nov 20, 2011

@g333s

I appreciate all the valuable information you have posted and your commitment to furthering the understanding of this complex topic. Being a new owner and have not been exposed previously to the exchange scenario, my question is simple math and in response to your previous statement:

"And when the sales person tried to make you feel that you needed to buy more just to have the same 7 days at your home resort, shame on him. Points were not created to be used at your home resort (unless you go during a lower season, in which case it would net you points left over after your week stay) But the points assigned for our weeks isn't the same as the required amount of staying during our season. This is simple...Because we don't need points to go back to our home resort during out season. The observation is irrelevant and to get upset over something the doesn't affect us seems unproductive."

Clearly I would not convert my week to points only to turnaround and use them at my home resort, but the fact that there is a difference between the number of points I receive for exchanging my week and what the same week would costs causes concern. To me, this means this same formula is applied across the spectrum of resorts, which does not allow for an even exchange and there is an apparent premium on using points vs those awarded in the exchange. (seemingly equal to approximately one day).

In my case, if I exchange my week for points I get 3075, but to book at my resort for the same time period it costs 3500. Why would Marriott not award me the same number of points that it would cost to stay there?

Of course there are options, such as staying S-TH or during a different time period, but that's not the point I wish to focus on. I've read through this string, but I have not seen a clear answer so far.


Richard F.

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