Manhattan Club Lawsuit

roberts, i have not seen any evidence whatsoever that shows that "we have a settlement in place that forces Eichner out of control and precludes him from doing more timeshare business in the state". a settlement? yes. however, that i am currently aware of is eichner is still in control. not having sufficient legal knowledge, i can't specify on what legal grounds there are to re-open the case. we all have heard of various legal matters being retired. this is not a challenge to your reasoning, but can you offer any idea about why this case cannot be re-opened? i am not alluding to any matters leading to schneiderman's resignation. however the so-called settlement that he achieved in his case against eichner was paltry and unfair to us owners. yes he concluded the proceedings by winning the case for ny state, but the win was hardly a victory. it was merely his way of ending this lengthy this case without the trauma of LOSING.

"SETTLEMENT," INDEED. it's more like a shameful ending, a LOSE, LOSE situation. are you really satisfied with this, and willing to do nothing more to see real justice being done? i'm not.

roberts714 wrote:

There's one major problem with your logic Chris. The State of NY and Eichner signed the settlement agreement. Under what grounds does the NYAG re-open it? The lead attorney for the NYAG resigned under the threat of potential wrong doing. To the best of my knowledge he hasn't been convicted of doing anything wrong. There have been allegations in the media of bad personal behavior. I'm not aware of any proof that Schneiderman didn't do his job. Not to be political but our legal system isn't set up for do-overs. If you could re-open the case the State would be risking that Eichner would be found of lessor violations. Right now we have a settlement in place that forces Eichner out of control and precludes him from doing more timeshare business in the state. IMHO we should be building on the findings the NYAG left us and not backtracking.

"are you really satisfied with this, and willing to do nothing" never said or implied any such sentiment.

I'm not an attorney, but have been close to real estate litigation for a good portion of my career. I'll be the first to admit I was surprised to read there are ways to re-open via the Martin Act. That said -- I don't feel the NYAG is ever going to make us whole. They aren't motivated to do so financially or politically. The only way I see is to do this ourselves. One of the largest tools we have in our arsenal (as owners) is control over the cash flow. If enough of us stop paying into the management of the facility they will be forced to negotiate with us or foreclose on us individually. I totally get why a good portion of the owners what to continue to pay maintenance fees. I respectfully disagree that sending any money to the current management team is a good idea. I have a glimmering hope that the new buyer is someone we might be able to reason with. Someone that can build a financial performa for the property based on real world numbers, not on the Eichner sales pitch of "look at this bright shiny object with 150% of the units sold and everyone of them paying 400% of actual costs". (my numbers have no basis in reality except to say I believe they oversold and are overcharging).

I believe the new NYAG has more pressing issues to deal with than a lawsuit that's been already been settled. Who knows if anyone is even watching over the settlement to see that those terrible terms are progressing as Eichener's attorneys can always file for extensions? I do hope that the possible new attorney, Mr Zimmerman, sifts through the hundreds of questionnaires and thinks there's a case to proceed with litigation. If he doesn't take on our case, then a class action lawsuit should be pursued which should be an easy win since the Eichners et al have already admitted to committing serious crimes. Think O.J. Simpson who was found guilty of murder only in a civil court. Personally I will no longer send money to criminals. I unfortunately consider my $18,000 purchase as my stupidity of buying into a Ponzi scheme. I'd rather pay my outstanding TMC debt plus interest money to an attorney to sue them. How can those that have admitted they defrauded me have the right to come after me in court, possibly ruin my credit when they're laughing all the way to the bank still collecting exorbitant Ponzi fees? The only way forward is not through the NYAG who fortunately has achieved getting Eichner et al to admit their fraud, but through our own combined litigation.

bethc222, my understanding is that the magnitude of eichners' fraudulent and sales-scheming activities are criminal offenses and should have been tried in criminal court. eichner defrauded us with, as you rightfully noted, a (similar type of) ponzi scheme.........think bernie madoff.......birds of a feather. yes, schneiderman's lawsuit was "settled." i consider that so-called settlement a miscarriage of justice. it seems schneiderman wanted a win, no matter what......and he got his "victorious" win and probably a gubernatorial acknowledgment for A JOB WELL DONE (????)

eichner is a brilliant (and fraudulent) businessman with a cadre of equally brilliant attorneys at his disposal. i doubt that he would have come out as unscathed as he did in this past legal proceeding if the case were tried in criminal court. I mentioned earlier in this forum, that the case should be re-opened. i did not mean in the same venue or under the same circumstances. schneiderman found eichner's criminal fraud via his undercover agents attending and recording lie-infested and fraudulent sales presentations. isn't that enough of a criminal offense (in addition to eichner's mail fraud, i.e., mailing brochures to people he wanted to snare as prospective buyers......a federal offense)?? eichner and all of his associates should be brought to criminal court for another trial using some of the incriminating evidence uncovered by schneiderman. i do not claim legal expertise; however i believe the new nys attorney general would be sufficiently competent to prosecute a criminal case.

yes the nysag has other pressing issues and ours (THE MANHATTAN CLUB TIMESHARE OWNERS) is as pressing as others. this case involves in excess of 17-18,000 unsuspecting and defrauded purchasers. one of the jobs of the OFFICE OF THE NYS ATTORNEY GENERAL IS TO PROTECT CONSUMERS' RIGHTS. our rights were violated, and the punishment (of eichner) did not fit his crime. two major parts of the settlement have been ludicrous, i.e, the $6+million fine....equally divided---do the math..........and eichner's loss of permission to do further timeshare business...a joke if i ever heard one. i mentioned earlier of his business accumen and expertise. he could create a dummy company (which he has already done) to start a new timeshare venture and hire some lackey to "head" the business under his direction...quite a realistic scenario, n'est pas? in a few words, EICHNER SHOULD BE TAKEN TO CRIMINAL COURT IMMEDIATELY, even based only one of many pieces of criminal evidence uncovered by schneiderman.

i have doubts that any outside attorneys can really help us in our financially disastrous dilemma, unless they are as savvy and numerous as eichner's; however, i would consider listening to what they have to offer but with the utmost caution.

chris

bethc222 wrote:

I believe the new NYAG has more pressing issues to deal with than a lawsuit that's been already been settled. Who knows if anyone is even watching over the settlement to see that those terrible terms are progressing as Eichener's attorneys can always file for extensions? I do hope that the possible new attorney, Mr Zimmerman, sifts through the hundreds of questionnaires and thinks there's a case to proceed with litigation. If he doesn't take on our case, then a class action lawsuit should be pursued which should be an easy win since the Eichners et al have already admitted to committing serious crimes. Think O.J. Simpson who was found guilty of murder only in a civil court. Personally I will no longer send money to criminals. I unfortunately consider my $18,000 purchase as my stupidity of buying into a Ponzi scheme. I'd rather pay my outstanding TMC debt plus interest money to an attorney to sue them. How can those that have admitted they defrauded me have the right to come after me in court, possibly ruin my credit when they're laughing all the way to the bank still collecting exorbitant Ponzi fees? The only way forward is not through the NYAG who fortunately has achieved getting Eichner et al to admit their fraud, but through our own combined litigation.

I'll try again.

roberts714 wrote:

"are you really satisfied with this, and willing to do nothing" never said or implied any such sentiment.

I'm not an attorney, but have been close to real estate litigation for a good portion of my career. I'll be the first to admit I was surprised to read there are ways to re-open via the Martin Act. That said -- I don't feel the NYAG is ever going to make us whole. They aren't motivated to do so financially or politically. The only way I see is to do this ourselves. One of the largest tools we have in our arsenal (as owners) is control over the cash flow. If enough of us stop paying into the management of the facility they will be forced to negotiate with us or foreclose on us individually. I totally get why a good portion of the owners what to continue to pay maintenance fees. I respectfully disagree that sending any money to the current management team is a good idea. I have a glimmering hope that the new buyer is someone we might be able to reason with. Someone that can build a financial performa for the property based on real world numbers, not on the Eichner sales pitch of "look at this bright shiny object with 150% of the units sold and everyone of them paying 400% of actual costs". (my numbers have no basis in reality except to say I believe they oversold and are overcharging).

I agree with you 100%. Why should we continue to fund a BAD, BAD organization. I gave $59,000 cash to TMC right up front and I feel that is a big enough loss to have to take on a fraudulent scheme that Eichner was able to pull over on us unsuspecting victims.

I feel fortunate that I've only thrown about $16,000.00 into TMC compared to others. I refuse to add any more into this ponzi scheme, I don't care about about my credit score & would welcome foreclosure,repossession, whatever it takes to be rid of this. There is nothing to repossess anyway but a piece of paper. It is Imaginary real estate with legal paperwork .

That is correct - the only way the settlement could be re visited would be if fraud were alleged and proven ( ie if Eichner lied under oath about certain matters) or if the terms of the settlement were not carried out by either party to the agreement. There's some speculation now that Eicher has not removed himself from the operations of the Manhattan Club and we are certainly due an explanation as to why that $6,000,000 "management fee" continues to show up in our budget. This is something that the new attorney general's office should be questioned about.

Tried again; 4th time and got the survey!

Please send the survey to me at gwyll3m@gmail.com

Guillermo

I have tried to get the survey, but have not been able. Can you send it to me. HDUNSTER@AOL.COM. Thank you Hank

tulipblossom wrote:

That is correct - the only way the settlement could be re visited would be if fraud were alleged and proven ( ie if Eichner lied under oath about certain matters) or if the terms of the settlement were not carried out by either party to the agreement. There's some speculation now that Eicher has not removed himself from the operations of the Manhattan Club and we are certainly due an explanation as to why that $6,000,000 "management fee" continues to show up in our budget. This is something that the new attorney general's office should be questioned about.

Very good point. Another issue there was no reasonable explanation why the Judge Eileen Rakower who raised the question on owners' involvement in the case has been suddenly replaced with another judge (political undertones?). Replacement occurred I believe in July 2017, and the case was settled in August 2017 almost immediately.

tulipblossom and all other fellow defrauded TMC VICTIMS, fraud is not ALLEGED in eichner's case; IT'S FACT. i believe that was discovered and proven well beyond a reasonable doubt, to wit: schneiderman sent his undercover agents to eichner's sales presentations. they recorded lies, scams and fraudulent manipulations during the presentations.....that indeed is not ALLEGED, IT'S FACT, AND IT'S A CRIME, IN ADDITION TO U.S. MAIL FRAUD, OF EICHNER SENDING BROCHURES TO COAX PROSPECTIVE BUYERS TO HIS FRAUDULENT, LIE-INFESTED PRESENTATIONS... (A FEDERAL CRIME). BOTH ISSUES SHOULD BE TRIED IN CRIMINAL COURT. YES, A NEW CASE SHOULD BE OPENED IMMEDIATELY BY THE NYS ATTORNEY GENERAL CURRENTLY IN CHARGE (WHOEVER THAT PERSON MAY BE). our representatives, including the governor and nyc mayor and consumer advocates, should be apprised of this current miscarriage of justice and come forward and do their respective jobs in our behalf. eichner's crimes were committed in NEW YORK STATE, so one not need be a resident to reap realistic trial court's benefits. all of us deserve substantial financial compensation that would most likely be attached to eichner and company's criminal conviction.

keep in mind, we never heard from ANY OF our representatives (senators, congressmen, consumer advocates, THE GOVERNOR, THE NYC MAYOR) some of whom MUST HAVE become aware of OUR ISSUES.......EICHNER AND THE MANHATTAN CLUB. it was left to an inept ATTORNEY GENERAL who had his mind on other issues he considered more important than ours............which involved, probably 18,000 consumers....US. BUT HE "WON" (JOKE INTENDED) THE CASE.

tulipblossom wrote:

That is correct - the only way the settlement could be re visited would be if fraud were alleged and proven ( ie if Eichner lied under oath about certain matters) or if the terms of the settlement were not carried out by either party to the agreement. There's some speculation now that Eicher has not removed himself from the operations of the Manhattan Club and we are certainly due an explanation as to why that $6,000,000 "management fee" continues to show up in our budget. This is something that the new attorney general's office should be questioned about.

What is most frustrating about this situation is that we are all in limbo, the maintenance fees are ratcheting up every year while this situation continues to stall, and we simply can't do a thing about it. I am not willing to put out thousands more to an attorney, since I've already shelled out $59,000, not including the years of maintenance fees I DID pay (I'm no longer paying them) to go up against a career criminal such as Eichner. I like Chrisv126's comments and line of reasoning about what SHOULD BE done but how do we get the NYAG (whoever that may be) to do the right thing for all of us 18,000+ victims. I personally am sitting this out and I do not care if I get reported to a credit agency because there's simply enough publicity and documentation to support why I won't give up another cent of my hard earned money. Credit is so easy to re-establish that I could care less about what this will do to my credit rating if I get turned over to a collection agency. There are a lot of you "victims" that know more about the law and how things work that are offering great ideas and recommendations. I do not have the legal background or knowledge to even know where to begin. This forum is great for throwing these ideas out there and hearing what you legal eagles have to say. Keep the suggestions coming!

I was referring not to the "pre settlement " fraud which was certainly alleged and proven; hence the settlement. I was referring to fraudulent actions, statements, and/ or lies/misrepresentations made while Eichner was under oath or had been stipulated by him and or his attorney in settlement talks. Meaning, if the terms of the settlement were predicated upon representations by Eicher that later turned out to have been mis truths - the argument being that had the real or true facts come out, the terms of the settlement would have been different. You must have a basis in order to revisit an agreed upon settlement.

URGENT !!!!! For those of you that filled out the survey for Attorney Jean Marc Zimmerman - watch your emails for a letter from his firm. (his email is JMZ@zimllp.com)

I urge all of you to carefully consider taking ACTION - this is our shot!!!! - otherwise, the fraud and injustice will continue for many more years and you will never see an end. It's time for serious legal action. I don't know about you all, but this thread of woes just going on for years and years and over 200 pages is ENOUGH. Commenting and writing paragraphs on this thread will change nothing.

Filing complaints, letters to judge....my opinion is that is just a waste of precious time. That settlement was nonsense. His letter will explain more - I feel it's VERY reasonable and I hope you all do too - our chance is NOW.

Sue - please post the letter his firm sends out as I have emailed him several times and have not heard back so I may not be on the email list where the letter is sent.

Kathi B I too have not heard from the Lawyer office I would like to be involve I have e-mail three or four times. Is there any other way to get in touch.

sueo79

i'll add to the countless times that the following action HAS BEEN PRESENTED. MY GUESS IS THAT FEW HAVE TAKEN THE TIME TO ACT ON THIS SUGGESTION:

THE MESSAGE OF FRAUD, SCAMS, LIES AND DECEIPT HEAPED UPON US BY EICHNER AND CREW MUST BE BROUGHT TO THE ATTENTION OF NEW YORK LEGISLATORS (SENATORS, CONGRESSPEOPLE, ET AL) STARTING WITH CUOMO AND INCLUDING MAYOR DI BLASIO. i doubt this is being done. most of us talk a good talk and leave out the action. EVEN THE ATTORNEY WHO'S CURRENTLY COLLECTING DATA FROM US SEEMS TO HAVE DISAPPEARED.

we are in desperate need of a meeting of OWNERS WHO WILL BE ACTIVE. WHO HAS A LIST OF OWNERS WITH CONTACT INFORMATION? NOBODY HAS GOTTEN THIS ESSENTIAL INFORMATION. WE CAN JUST BE WRITING AND COMPLAINING TO "GHOSTS/SPIRITS" IN THIS FORUM. WE NEED REAL PEOPLE WHO WILL BE PROACTIVE IN FIGHTING FOR OUR JUST CAUSE. WE NEED A LIST OF OWNERS WITH THEIR CONTACT EMAILS AND/OR PHONE NUMBERS. WE NEED TO FORM AN ACTIVE GROUP WHICH MEANS ORGANIZING AND MEETING IN AN APPROPRIATELY-SIZED VENUE, WE ARE BETWEEN 14 & 18, 000 STRONG (AS OWNERS) IF EVEN HALF OF US GOT TOGETHER (WITH A LEADER AND AN AGENDA) WE COULD GET KEY GOVERNMENTAL PERSONNEL TO POSSIBLY SIT UP, TAKE NOTICE AND ASSIST US IN OUR QUEST FOR JUSTICE. THE COURT (OR AS IT WAS INEPTLY PRESENTED TO THE INAPPROPRIATE COURT---THE CASE SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT TO CRIMINAL COURT; THERE WAS ENOUGH OF SCHNEIDERMAN'S UNDERCOVER CRIMINAL EVIDENCE TO JUSTIFY THE CRIMINAL COURT VENUE) WHERE THE CASE WAS LITIGATED COULD HAVE DIRECTED THAT THE CASE BE TRIED ELSEWHERE, I.E, CRIMINAL COURT.

SOMEONE IS ON THE TAKE: THE MANHATTAN CLUB IS A FINE EXAMPLE OF THE BLACK MARKS ON THE NATIONWIDE TIMESHARE INDUSTRY. HAS ANYONE SEEN ANY REAL SANCTIONS AGAINST ANY OF THESE TIMESHARE THIEVES? I WONDER WHY!!! SO FEW TIMESHARE OPERATIONS ARE LEGITIMATE (OR OPERATE LEGITIMATELY.) I DON'T SEE ANY GOVERNMENTAL WATCHDOG COMMITTEES COMING FORTH IN CONSUMERS' DEFENSE. WHY NOT?? I REPEAT, SOMEONE IS ON THE TAKE, AN APPROPRIATE CONCLUSION UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

YOU SAY "His letter will explain more - I feel it's VERY reasonable and I hope you all do too - our chance is NOW."

HOW CAN "HIS LETTER" OF EXPLANATION BE OBTAINED FOR OWNERS TO PERUSE? WHAT KIND OF OUT-OF-POCKET FEES WILL BE NECESSARY? ARE FEES PAYABLE UPFRONT? THERE ARE MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS, SO PERHAPS MAKING THIS LETTER AVAILABLE ON THIS FORUM WOULD BE APPROPRIATE.

sueo79 wrote:

URGENT !!!!! For those of you that filled out the survey for Attorney Jean Marc Zimmerman - watch your emails for a letter from his firm. (his email is JMZ@zimllp.com)

I urge all of you to carefully consider taking ACTION - this is our shot!!!! - otherwise, the fraud and injustice will continue for many more years and you will never see an end. It's time for serious legal action. I don't know about you all, but this thread of woes just going on for years and years and over 200 pages is ENOUGH. Commenting and writing paragraphs on this thread will change nothing.

Filing complaints, letters to judge....my opinion is that is just a waste of precious time. That settlement was nonsense. His letter will explain more - I feel it's VERY reasonable and I hope you all do too - our chance is NOW.

I too have attempted to contact the lawyer without success. If anyone finds a way to get through, please let me know.

Thanks, Janet Hebert

tulipblossom wrote:

Sue - please post the letter his firm sends out as I have emailed him several times and have not heard back so I may not be on the email list where the letter is sent.