BUYING DEVELOPER vs RESALE (typical scenario)

rustyw4 wrote:

I never thought I would fall for a sales pitch for a timeshare but low and behold I did. I usually am the one saying, NO but for some reason, I said YES! I am now trying to learn the art of buying resale:)

The first thing you do is take a look at the various resale costs and compare . Then email the owner and find out if all MF's and say any refurbishment costs have been paid so that there are no surprises, then once you are satisfied make an offer as I have done with 4 of the resales that I bought. I would not buy any other way .Make sure you use a reputable closing company like Timeshare Transfer in Vero Beach and then they do everything and send the owner the funds. I would never buy new you can own 10 for the price that you pay for 1 at full resort cost.

bonniea16 states in relevant part: >> Then email the owner and find out if all MF's and say any refurbishment costs have been paid so that there are no surprises...<< ==============================================

While there is some good info and advice in some of the other input bonnie has offered, I must respectfully disagree with relying upon this (quoted above) suggestion.

Specifically, in my own opinion and experience, a buyer should NEVER rely solely upon the representations or assertions of a seller regarding the seller's account status. There could, in fact, be unpaid bills which the seller is "less than forthcoming" about. Worse still, there could be liens filed against the ownership which the seller somehow does not know about (or claims not to know about).

My alternative advice is to submit any offer with the clear statement that "the offer is made with the buyers' belief and understanding that there are no unpaid mf's or special assessments or other unpaid bills and no mortgages, liens or other encumbrances of any kind in place regarding the seller's current ownership." The buyer should thereafter rely ONLY upon a signed estoppel letter back from the resort to the closing company (not just emails or verbal seller claims in phone conversations with the buyer) as the only valid confirmation of the absence of any unpaid money. An attentive and competent closing company will get that signed "estoppel letter" directly from the resort, politely disregarding any and all verbal claims made by the seller.

This is not a criticism of bonnies' otherwise good input, but this one point needed some alternative, additional perspective. My input on this particular detail is based upon having encountered such "surprises" (i.e., seller misrepresentations) in the past. Been there, done that...

rustyw4 wrote:

I never thought I would fall for a sales pitch for a timeshare but low and behold I did. I usually am the one saying, NO but for some reason, I said YES! I am now trying to learn the art of buying resale:)

I have also bought thru a developer. the main difference i see is you buy thru the developer you get all the developer perks that come with certain resorts. Otherwise buying resale all you get is a week to trade, with no perks. it's up to the buyer to decide if it's worth developer price. also if buying resale call the timeshare management comp and see if you can get into their programs. some will let you for a fee.

lanzone782 wrote:

rustyw4 wrote:

I never thought I would fall for a sales pitch for a timeshare but low and behold I did. I usually am the one saying, NO but for some reason, I said YES! I am now trying to learn the art of buying resale:)

I have also bought thru a developer. the main difference i see is you buy thru the developer you get all the developer perks that come with certain resorts. Otherwise buying resale all you get is a week to trade, with no perks. it's up to the buyer to decide if it's worth developer price. also if buying resale call the timeshare management comp and see if you can get into their programs. some will let you for a fee.

==========

When buying resale, "low price" does not always equal "inexpensive". Where is the resort (convenient?)and what is the reputation of the company? What are the annual maintenance fees? Are there additional costs such as Club Dues, exchange company memberships, etc? Is it an individual resort or a resort group within which you can exchange with no extra cost or, at worst, a very moderate one? All timeshares are not created equal.

In the resort groups with which we own, resale purchases do NOT usually count toward VIP status. This may mean that you have extra reservation fees, change & cancelation fees, loss of benefits others enjoy, etc.etc.

If the difference between the Developer price and the Resale price is great, you may still come out ahead. You might just feel nickeled and dimed to death.

Anyhow, if you just made a Developer purchase, use it to learn the ropes really well before deciding on your next move. MD

Hi,

I am on my last day within my recission period. My wife and I purchased 308K points at the new San Francisco Wyndham for $46K. It seemed like a good deal until I dug in more. What are the benefits to keeping this and the VIP status? The thought was to by resale points as an add-on later and keep the VIP or possibly try for gold over time. Is it worth the massive premium or should I bail out now wow I have the chance?

Thanks,

Eric

erics243 wrote:

Hi,

I am on my last day within my recission period. My wife and I purchased 308K points at the new San Francisco Wyndham for $46K. It seemed like a good deal until I dug in more. What are the benefits to keeping this and the VIP status? The thought was to by resale points as an add-on later and keep the VIP or possibly try for gold over time. Is it worth the massive premium or should I bail out now wow I have the chance?

Thanks,

Eric

RESCIND RESCIND RESCIND IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!

Then do homework. I'm positive you will come to the conclusion that the exorbitant price you paid buying from the developer is not worth the benefits of VIP status.

I recently purchased on Ebay 140,000 points at a southeast Wyndham/Fairfield Florida property I love. The price was $297. plus $598. in closing costs and resort transfer fee. (I own many more FF Points bought previously the same way). I will be able to reserve nights or weeks at your new San Francisco resort ten months prior to the check-in date. Since it's a new resort still in sales (not that many owners yet), there should be good availability at the 10 month period, for quite a few years to come. By the time that availablity for owners from other resorts to reserve dwindles (if it ever happens--may not), then owner resales should start coming on the secondary market at a fraction of the price they paid buying from the developer.

Many Wyndham/Fairfield VIP owners are very dissatisfied with the changes that keep being made to the program, decreasing the value of their benefits, and even eliminating some perks altogether. That's why you will see people who own 1 million plus points dumping them on Ebay, or selling them on sites such as Redweek.

I suggest you join (it's FREE) the Wyndham owners group: http://forums.atozed.com/ and learn a lot of valuable first-hand information from owners.

If you still somehow feel that the VIP benefits are worth the huge price being charged by the developer, you can always buy back the same package after you rescinded it. Don't fall for the bs line that you received some extra special price that will never be offered again. As a matter of fact, if you rescind, they will probably call you and offer a much lower price to get you to re-purchase.

To rescind, FOLLOW THE PRESCRIBED PROCEDURE EXACTLY. If it says that it must be sent by US mail, send it that way, certified, return receipt requested. Do not use Fedex or UPS. If you are supposed to return booklets or other materials, do so. Just keep copies of any diocuments you signed. I don't know if you live close to the resort but if you do, and decide to go there in person to deliver the rescission letter, ALSO send another letter by mail or whatever other procedure that is specified in your contract. By law it is supposed to be prominently placed near where you sign the contract. If you have paid all or part of it by credit card, immediately notify the cc company that you have rescinded the purchase and want a refund of any monies paid and/or that no further charges be accepted from Wyndham.

I hope you can get out of this in time. Otherwise, you have probably made the most costly mistake of your life. Good luck. Please let us know how it turns out.

jennie wrote:

erics243 wrote:

Hi,

I am on my last day within my recission period. My wife and I purchased 308K points at the new San Francisco Wyndham for $46K. It seemed like a good deal until I dug in more. What are the benefits to keeping this and the VIP status? The thought was to by resale points as an add-on later and keep the VIP or possibly try for gold over time. Is it worth the massive premium or should I bail out now wow I have the chance?

Thanks,

Eric

RESCIND RESCIND RESCIND IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!

Then do homework. I'm positive you will come to the conclusion that the exorbitant price you paid buying from the developer is not worth the benefits of VIP status.

I recently purchased on Ebay 140,000 points at a southeast Wyndham/Fairfield Florida property I love. The price was $297. plus $598. in closing costs and resort transfer fee. (I own many more FF Points bought previously the same way). I will be able to reserve nights or weeks at your new San Francisco resort ten months prior to the check-in date. Since it's a new resort still in sales (not that many owners yet), there should be good availability at the 10 month period, for quite a few years to come. By the time that availablity for owners from other resorts to reserve dwindles (if it ever happens--may not), then owner resales should start coming on the secondary market at a fraction of the price they paid buying from the developer.

Many Wyndham/Fairfield VIP owners are very dissatisfied with the changes that keep being made to the program, decreasing the value of their benefits, and even eliminating some perks altogether. That's why you will see people who own 1 million plus points dumping them on Ebay, or selling them on sites such as Redweek.

I suggest you join (it's FREE) the Wyndham owners group: http://forums.atozed.com/ and learn a lot of valuable first-hand information from owners.

If you still somehow feel that the VIP benefits are worth the huge price being charged by the developer, you can always buy back the same package after you rescinded it. Don't fall for the bs line that you received some extra special price that will never be offered again. As a matter of fact, if you rescind, they will probably call you and offer a much lower price to get you to re-purchase.

To rescind, FOLLOW THE PRESCRIBED PROCEDURE EXACTLY. If it says that it must be sent by US mail, send it that way, certified, return receipt requested. Do not use Fedex or UPS. If you are supposed to return booklets or other materials, do so. Just keep copies of any diocuments you signed. I don't know if you live close to the resort but if you do, and decide to go there in person to deliver the rescission letter, ALSO send another letter by mail or whatever other procedure that is specified in your contract. By law it is supposed to be prominently placed near where you sign the contract. If you have paid all or part of it by credit card, immediately notify the cc company that you have rescinded the purchase and want a refund of any monies paid and/or that no further charges be accepted from Wyndham.

I hope you can get out of this in time. Otherwise, you have probably made the most costly mistake of your life. Good luck. Please let us know how it turns out.

Thanks so much for the response... you validated my gut feel. After reading all of the paperwork, I discovered the rescission rights document buried in information they never went over. It said that I had within 7 days to rescind. I bought last Saturday. The legal jargon states that I can mail or fax it to the office (number provided). I opted to fax it since I didn't know if today or tomorrow was my last day. I sent it twice just to be sure and kept documentation. It seems like they could easily claim they didn't get it since it is not a recorded transaction. In the morning I am going to try and contact them directly to be sure, but I doubt that I'll be able to get to them given it is Saturday. I'll keep you posted and thanks again for the advice!

Eric

erics243 states in part: Re: >> After reading all of the paperwork, I discovered the rescission rights document buried in information they never went over. It said that I had within 7 days to rescind. I bought last Saturday.<<

The right of contract rescission is one provided by law, with or without the notification, consent or approval of the selling resort. Only the actual time period varies from one state to another. In most states, it's 5-7 days. Generally, Sundays don't count on the ticking clock, but Saturdays do. ================================================

Re: >> The legal jargon states that I can mail or fax it to the office (number provided). I opted to fax it since I didn't know if today or tomorrow was my last day. I sent it twice just to be sure and kept documentation. It seems like they could easily claim they didn't get it since it is not a recorded transaction. In the morning I am going to try and contact them directly to be sure, but I doubt that I'll be able to get to them given it is Saturday. <<

NO!!! You need to step away from that fax machine, stay off the telephone, and instead (and more productively) get your butt to the nearest U.S. Post Office and MAIL your contract rescission by certifed mail BEFORE the Post Office closes TODAY (and remember, the USPS counters close at noon on Saturdays). You NEED the certified mail stamp -- not because it's a legal requirement (it isn't), but because it provides objective, third party documentary proof that you have, indisputably, met the contract rescission deadline provided by law. If you just put your letter in a mailbox today, it won't get postmarked in time to meet the deadline and cancellation would then NOT be valid (regardless of date written on the cancellation letter itself).

DO **NOT** RELY ON FAX FOR YOUR CONTRACT RESCISSION. Dates can easily be manipulated on fax machines (by either sender or recipient) and can be legally challenged for that reason, if the selling resort tries to be deceptive or make your life difficult. Get to the Post Office --- TODAY, BEFORE NOON!!!

ken1193 wrote:

erics243 states in part: Re: >> After reading all of the paperwork, I discovered the rescission rights document buried in information they never went over. It said that I had within 7 days to rescind. I bought last Saturday.<<

The right of contract rescission is one provided by law, with or without the notification, consent or approval of the selling resort. Only the actual time period varies from one state to another. In most states, it's 5-7 days. Generally, Sundays don't count on the ticking clock, but Saturdays do. ================================================

Re: >> The legal jargon states that I can mail or fax it to the office (number provided). I opted to fax it since I didn't know if today or tomorrow was my last day. I sent it twice just to be sure and kept documentation. It seems like they could easily claim they didn't get it since it is not a recorded transaction. In the morning I am going to try and contact them directly to be sure, but I doubt that I'll be able to get to them given it is Saturday. <<

NO!!! You need to step away from that fax machine, stay off the telephone, and instead (and more productively) get your butt to the nearest U.S. Post Office and MAIL your contract rescission by certifed mail BEFORE the Post Office closes TODAY (and remember, the USPS counters close at noon on Saturdays). You NEED the certified mail stamp -- not because it's a legal requirement (it isn't), but because it provides objective, third party documentary proof that you have, indisputably, met the contract rescission deadline provided by law. If you just put your letter in a mailbox today, it won't get postmarked in time to meet the deadline and cancellation would then NOT be valid (regardless of date written on the cancellation letter itself).

DO **NOT** RELY ON FAX FOR YOUR CONTRACT RESCISSION. Dates can easily be manipulated on fax machines (by either sender or recipient) and can be legally challenged for that reason, if the selling resort tries to be deceptive or make your life difficult. Get to the Post Office --- TODAY, BEFORE NOON!!!

Okay thanks... Off to the Post Office Now!!!

Eric

The date/time stamped on the certified mail with return receipt rescission letter you mailed is what the developer uses to determine the validity of the rescission even if the letter has not yet reached the developer.

I rescinded my Wyndham purchase (Fairfield at the time) by fax AND certified mail. They were very straight about it and the fax method was fine. Can never be too certain though.

While I agree Wyndham has degraded the VIP status, re-sale is not they way for a number of people. I ended up buying 1.3 million points re-sale but there are two significant VIP benefits I am not eligible for. - Free room upgrades when booking less than 60 days in advance - 50% points discount when booking less than 60 days in advance OK, not many people will use 1 million points/yr, but if you do then if you book most of your trips less than 60 days in advance then buying 1 million points and using them like 2 mil (or more if upgrades are available)effectively means you are paying half the maintence. Granted, it would take a lot of time for that to pay off, but it does pay off.

Throw in early checkin and a few other perks and the direct purchase has very specific value. I'm not going to buy direct for that, but I do think it's worthwhile. I've bought direct with Diamond in order to get rtesale purchases back into full Club benefits. That's proven to be very worthwhile for me. But I understand a lot of people don't want to pay the extra money. It's OK, just remember there are people who will decide the money is worth it for the added benefits. But if you don't know your options, many people are also missing out on the resale market values!

Right On!

I have had like experiences and would never buy from a developer and many times not from a dealer. Shop on the web--there are scores and perhaps hundreds of sights. Many times you can find things that are 10-30% of what you would pay otherwise. Pay attention to the annual fees charged too and find out if they are prone to charging extra assessments. Also know your closing costs. Good Luck.

Rich

If you do a lot of searching around, you will get a feel for it.

jayjay wrote:

The most expensive timeshare we ever bought was our first from the developer in a brand new area facing a waterpark (very coveted location) of a very popular gold crown resort in Florida, and we paid 10K for it. I thought 10K was outrageous. We were not educated about resales at the time we bought from the developer.

A few years later when we were ready to sell I advertised it for 5K (half price as I had read that no way would we get the developer purchase price back on a resale). I advertised it on several internet sites with no interest whatsoever. I kept dropping the price and finally got an offer of $2900 which I took and was glad to get it. We lost 7K on our developer bought timeshare, which is typical on the resale market.

We definitely learned a (very expensive) lesson concerning buying developer timeshares. We went on to buy 8 resales (at very good prices) where we liked to go. When we were ready to sell them, we had no problem at all since we bought at such good prices to begin with.

A tough way to learn about developer bought timeshares vs resales.

A resale timeshare is the exact same product as a developer timeshare and costs 1/4 to 1/3 of the developer cost.

Can anyone answer this question? How is it that a timeshare is sold in "points" from a developer, ie- x amount of points can get you a 2 br every year, but the same resort is sold as a 2br week on a re-sale site?? Are you actually buying a week or a certain number of points? I'm asking because we just got back from PVR mexico where w finally said "no". I see that on this site the same units are for sale for half the price or cheaper. What I don't get is if they are selling points or weeks. According to the sales people (of course) buying resale is a bogus risk, and we would never be able to get the same deal they were selling.

We are considering buying at Paradise Village in PVR, Mexico. They sell there in a points system. On RW they are selling weeks/units. Can anyone clarify this for me? Thanks!!

~Jackie

Depending on how long the timeshare has been owned, or the policies of the timeshare company/resort, units at the same resort can be weeks or points based, or both.

Wyndham Vacation Resorts (Formerly Fairfield) originally sold all units as weeks units. Later the company decided to make a points based system. They sell/sold paoints tied to deeded resorts from then on and offered weeks owners the chance to pay a fee to move into the points system. Many didn't and now WVR has two types of owners.

Diamond Resorts (formerly Sunterra) has a similar story. To make matters more complex, they tie their points to "Club" membership which is stripped from the owner when sold. So DRI causes owners to become weeks owners (there are exceptions to this but the end result is the same) until the resale buyer pays DRI to convert back into Club.

Marriott and Westin have hybrids. Their points systems work differently and in some cases Westin owners seling their units cause the new owners to be weeks owners. Marriott has a points system but generally you still have to reserve in terms of weeks for timeshares. When Marriott owners sell, the new owner is only a weeks owner.

Then there's RCI Points. You can buy a timeshare where the resort participates in the RCI Points program, which I like A LOT more than the RCI weeks program. However, just becasue the resort participates you can't depend on this to ensure the unit you are buying participates in the RCI Points program. You must verify with the owner very specifically their unit participates vs is eligible. Being eligible means you can pay the resort to convert into the RCI Points program. Currently participates is what you want to verify.

Excellent post, mnop. You give good examples of the wide variety of timeshare possibilities. Anyone thinking of buying either resale or developer needs to understand how that particular company operates before making a decision. MD

I wish I had more time for the forums, there's a lot more info but too little time!

Your response seems to make some sense, I am familiar with the Sunterra/Diamond switchover, but in the case of Paradise Village in Mexico, we were told (understand we took with a HUGE "grain of salt") that the owner "invented" the points system widely in use today, and that they have "always" been a points resort. If that is truly so, I wonder what we'd be buying from the sellers on RW.com who are selling specific units/weeks...hmmm.... this is still confusing for me. I appreciate your patience, esp. since I've already been taken in by developers and scammers and would just really like to make the next decision more wisely. Thanks to all on this forum for your time and helpfulness.

~Jackie

I don't know that timeshare system, but there are times owners don't know what they are selling. It's a bigger risk to buy what looks like an incorrectly listed property but pays off now and then! I recomment you ask the seller to fax a copy of their purchase documents for you to review before or during closing, with the right to withdraw if you don't like the information.

I buy a lot of Diamond Resorts contracts. I have the seller sign an authorization form so I can contact the resort and ask questions directly about the seller's ownership. Staff at the resorts or corporate offices are not always proficcient, but if you have the authorization, keep asking for the transfer and closing departments in addition to owenr services. You might get your questions answered!

How do you determine a good resale price? Do you just watch the listings for a while to try and gauge the market? I am thinking of buying one but want to make sure I am not taking on someone elses losses.

It is quite possible that you may be taking on some else's loses, as you say. However, if you get it at a great price and it is what you want---no problem! Many people end up not using their timeshare, or are disgusted because they pay too much, or they grow old and do not need it----so they sell.

If you want to buy, you get a good place, and it is a super price---Be Happy!

patrickd79 wrote:

How do you determine a good resale price? Do you just watch the listings for a while to try and gauge the market? I am thinking of buying one but want to make sure I am not taking on someone elses losses.